2007/09/21

Emigration *IS* An Option

If America continues on its current course, will you seriously consider emigration?


If yes, what event might cause you to emigrate?


Seem like Blognonymous' readers are more disillusioned than liberals as a whole. A whopping 69% will consider emigration under the right circumstances. Of course the 16 of you who voted for 'martial law' as the reason (and in retrospect I suppose I really shouldn't have put that in), might not get the chance. But I'm especially intrigued by the 5 of you who are already planning your escape.

Apparently, America is gonna get left for the fundies and the fanatics. Now...where did I put that passport?

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52 Comments:

I know I'm not the first person to have ever suggested this, but ship all the wacko, warmongering fundy greedhounds to Texas, let them secede, and pick up Puerto Rico in its place. Don't have to alter a single flag, we can do an Austin airlift to keep that liberal enclave from being starved out and the Jesusheads can experiment with Biblical dominionist crown-of-thorns-and-blood prophecy til they get bored and drink themselves to death.

Wait. I hope that doesn't now qualify this place as a hate site. Sorry! :)
All it would take for me, is money. I'm already past being fed up. I would renew my passport and as soon as mom passes, I would like to leave. There is nothing left of the country that I once swore to defend with my life.

I want my country back.
Randal... Like Berlin, right? We'll fly in the Chardonnay, brie, NYT, and guns so the Austinites don't get overrun.

Deb... I've noticed a nasty turn in the level of political discourse the last 2 weeks. The 'Thuglicans see an opportunity to hammer the left and are going about it with gusto--while the spineless Democrats roll over and play dead.

Makes you want to pack up and go.
Fascinating results, I am always curious about what my "tipping point" might be.

I think opportunity and resources come into my particular mix.

Interesting, Frog.

As far as Austin, well, we must insist that they join us. Because soon it would look like a scene from Dawn of The Dead.
2013, that is when my husband's contract is up. That is scary. Enjoy the freedom you have now. Be grateful that you still have the freedom to leave the country if you choose without becoming a criminal in the process.
Because soon it would look like a scene from Dawn of The Dead.

When there's no more room in hell, indeed. Sweet zombie Jesus!

And Kvatch, forgot about the guns. Maybe I should rethink my position on assault weapons. They'd certainly be necessary for them!
Those are some interesting results. In retrospect, I'd liked to retract my vote and say I'm not leaving under any circumstances. This is my country too and I'm not moving just to please the fundies and fanatics.
Lynn... I agree. I found the poll very illuminating, and the issue of opportunity and resources is, IMHO, becoming very acute. The plain fact is that, as the dollar plunges against just about all currencies, very few of us will have the means to emigrate.

Navyswan... Interestingly, with TSA able to arbitrarily prevent anyone from traveling, the ability to emigrate is now...already...at the whim of the the Feds.g
Randal... And Austin is like Berlin, flat and hard to defend. ;-)

Mr_Blog... Interesting, only one asylum seeker in 10 years. You'd think there would be more. Though...Finland is far enough north that it's pretty much night 4 months out of the year.

Kathy... OK, you can retract, but only if you tell me what "event" you voted for? ;-)
Hubby and I took our "emigration to Canada tests" way back in fall of 2004. I guess we had a b-a-d feeeling about that election ;-)
We scored fairly well... and actually, since we've had another baby, we'd score even higher because Canada will happily take on small children (who will adapt and become "instant Canadians" much easier than adults)-- after the BIG initial costing of gestating and birthing the lil boogers.
My fair fluency in French also gave us a big boost. Hubby took 2 years of high school French, but honestly... who the hell remembers most of that?
We've even checked out the job/ housing market in the London/ Ontario area. I guess we're too afraid to make the jump (we LOVE our home, we're close to family & friends) but also, I feel like so many others do: Why should these sons of bitches get to take over our damned nation??? But if push came to shove, I'd leave it all behind for the safety and future of my kiddos.
Kvatch,
I don't think you got my point. Read between the lines.
And Austin is like Berlin, flat and hard to defend. ;-)

Just gimme a shopping mall. :)
I've often wondered if we'd be welcomed in other countries at this point. Do they blame all of us for the policies of this administration? Are they aware the election was more than likely stolen and many on the other side have been brainwashed by Rush, Fox and the like? I have so many questions.
Question is, where to go to? Most European countries are not that interested in receiving huge amounts of immigrants, even if they're westerners (check the reaction against the Polish that can now move freely throughout the EU). Mexico is a good place to retire too, but be sure to exchange your american pesos for real pesos before the floor drops out under it. Canada is a good place for those that aren't close to retiring. Booming economy, but again, move quickly. The loon is already at parity with the dollar...

My bet is that the next president will be a Republican, at about 2 to 1, 4 to 1 if Hillary tops the Democratic ticket (way too much baggage). I also believe that the next president will not order a full retreat from Iraq, certainly not if it's a Democrat. It is very difficult to be the one to admit defeat, especially knowing that you and your party will be blamed for it 'till kingdom come.
gracie, many people see the US as a threat to the world. They don't understand how the country works, and are generally mystified when I explain the finer details of the system. I often get the feeling that they don't believe that people would put up with it, or that the system would work at all. That said, they don't blame individuals for their government's mistakes.

So Europe is a safe place to go on a vacation. But most western countries don't seek out immigrants, especially not if they don't speak the local language. The EU has enough internal migration to create difficulties as it is. I don't think most european countries look forward to having to integrate hundreds of thousands of relatively right-wing, relatively religious refugees.

If a civil war breaks out in the US, that would change, perhaps even if martial law were declared. Under those circumstances, refugees can stay relatively easily (although it can take years before the asylum process concludes).

If you believe that the system is really flawed, and don't have the stomach for a real revolution, it is best to emigrate now, while the dollar is still worth something, and while you're still one of only a few hundreds that head out.
While emigration in and of itself is not, in any way, an offensive concept (I mean, there's a lots o' great places to live on the planet, right,) I would NOT do so in reaction to the unchecked insanity of the dismantlement of our constitution.

I'm thinkin' fighting to get it back might be more rewarding.

Whatever that might entail, eh.

As with the majority of your voters so far, the Marshall Law bit would be the biggest Motivator for me to get serious about my statement here. Deadly serious if need be.

But I wouldn't leave.

Great post idea, Frog! It needs to be considered, eh. Though I really hope no one goes "jumpin' the gun", as it were.
I would be interested to know exactly where the Americans wanting to leave will go.
I have my Irish Citizenship application turned in and am waiting to get that almighty EU passport.
If I were to go, Jamaica be soundin' Iree Mon!

{-;
Tina... Hey, much luck if you decide to go. I like the idea of Canada, well everything but the long winter days.

Navyswan... Hmmm, thought I did get the point. But either way, don't do anything I wouldn't contemplate doing! ;-)

Randal... Sort of a suburban 'Red Dawn'?
Gracie... I think a lot depends on the immigration issues the country is facing already. I'm not sure that Americans individually are looked upon with suspicion. At least I hope not.

I think that Endorendil is largely right here.

Endorendil... I'm not betting on a Republican for the next Prez, but I think that the situation is going to weigh heavily on the Democratic party. So...4 years for the Dems, then another Republican. It's going to be a very rough ride no matter what.
Michael... Hat's off to all the people who can stick it out. Based on a comment in the earlier thread, I'm wondering about secession.

Lucyp... Welcome to Blognonymous! That would make a great additional poll. Though, I'm not sure how to structure it.

Catherine... Good for you! Much luck when it comes through, and keep us apprised.
Where would all the emigrants go?

For anyone thinking the end is nigh for the US, you would be foolish to think Canada beckons.

Without the US, Canada would collapse. Most of its economy is dependent on the US. It doesn't have a pharmaceutical industry. No US, no drugs for Canada.

No US, no market for Canadian oil and gas. No US, no auto manufacturing. You name it, and it's gone without the good old US of A steaming along, supporting everyone north of the border.
I'd like to stick it out and not leave the country to the right wing nuts. But if it gets really, really discouraging and I don't feel as if we can make a difference anymore, then I choose New Zealand. English speaking (since I am not really fluent in any other language), great combinations of climates (North Island has snow, South Island is tropical), friendly people, liberal politics. I am not sure how easy it is to get a job there but if I am retired by then it won't matter.
I'll say it again, if you Euro-American liberals are determined to go, we'll be happy to stand at the docks and wave (sort of a Plymouth Rock in reverse) but you HAVE TO TAKE THE NUTBURGERS WITH YOU! And though I do like the idea of a Right Wing Reservation in principle (we will be happy to supply them with surplus cheese and other assorted commod items), please don't pick on Texas too much. Bush was actually born in Connecticut.
My best friend and a staunch anti-Bush activist just moved to Italy. He just couldn't live in this country anymore. I certainly understand the feeling. I still think for every exhausted liberal that exits two conservatives come out of their coma and convert. The numbers will catch up to the GOP sooner or later.
I'm not going to say where I've been researching.

Because I don't want people like Slappy following.
If anyone is looking for opportunity in a new land, the place is Cuba, and the time is after Fidel croaks. His time is getting short. And it looks as though his brother Raul is thinking of taking the same road as China.

Thus, if you missed the real estate boom in the US, you'll get a second chance in Cuba as the country is taken from its state of suspended animation and rammed into the 21st century.

Station Agent, from the words in your post it appears your friend went to Italy solo. What age is your pal? Relatively young, I assume. No family to think of. Thus, it really doesn't matter where on the globe a footloose person spends a little time.

I'm sure the excursion will be fun -- as long as it lasts. But I'll bet a dollar it's not permanent.

As for New Zealand and those kiwi dreams, well, it's a swell little country. Americans like to visit, but I don't think much is happening there.

Meanwhile, for all the complaining about Life in America on this site, exactly which worry has caused actual torment in the lives of posters here?
I'm for staying and fighting!
Sort of a suburban 'Red Dawn'?

No, no, Dawn of the Dead! Don't tell me you've never seen it. If so, rectify this wrong immediately, sir!

No US, no market for Canadian oil and gas.

Whomever would the Canucks sell to? No one else uses oil and gas.

Is Canada dependent on us for many things? Sure, just like the US is dependent on Canada and the world - you know, China - for many things. Walling up into a nation of isolationists isn't possible in 2007.

As for actual torment, that's a strawman. No one on here that I'm aware of has been the subject of extraordinary rendi - kidnapping, for example, but it's the accumulation of wrongs done in our name AND to certain American citizens that pisses off us and makes us worry for the future. At the risk of breaking Godwin's Law, which us liberals love to do at every opportunity, the average German in 1932, for example, couldn't have foreseen what was going to take place. I don't want my government spying on me. I don't want my government allowing a city to drown. I don't want my government illegally invading and occupying a sovereign nation, no matter how much of a evil boogeyman runs the place. I don't want my government curtailing civil liberties in the name of freedom. I don't want my government permitting the politicization and christianization of departments and the military. Change won't come by armies of jackbooted thugs knocking on your door. If you're quiet, go to work, consume, watch American Idol, pop out a couple of kids to fill the next generation of cubicles, you might not notice that much, especially if you're white.

Just because you're currently not in some black site in Central Europe or Syria doesn't mean it can't happen. I don't want a king, thanks.
After all the liberals leave the U.S., these are some of the poll results we'll be seeing:

President Cheney -- 90% approval

Should we continue with our wars in Iran and Syria? 87% say yes.

And so on.

Come on, y'all, stay here. Let's get the rednecks to leave.

Who Hijacked Our Country
Leave? Naw, gotta see what happens. :)

"If you want to leave, go ahead, but you're going to miss the fun."
"What fun?"
"Ick invented a nude virus and we're going to release it in Kent's room."
As our freedoms continue to be eroded away, I'm not so sure America is the greatest country any more.

Perhaps there is no freer place on earth, I don't know. Wide open remote spaces far from civilization do sound inviting.

We may be the most powerful nation. We may have the most nukes. We may have large economic clout. But in my view, that's not what makes America great.

What made America great were the guarantee of certain rights all had. What made America great was being able to live NOT in fear of one's government.

Now I have to worry about big brother looking over my shoulder. Every email I send, every porn site I visit, every time I buy beer or booze, every doctor visit, every google search, every place I travel, every book I read is making it into some behemoth government data base.

What's to stop some Federal thug from looking over all that info and trying to build a sham case against me? Maybe not to arrest me, but to initimdate me into silence.

12 hours of intense interogation on an individual can have a chilling effect.

This is the direction I see America heading.

Dissidents will be intimidated into silence.

At one time it was our right to protest, to free speech, to peacefully assemble. Dissenting against the government was a patriotic duty of all Americans.

Now it's become a sin. It used to be that sins had no place in government because there was seperation of church and state. Now those lines have been blurred and peoples' morality has been questioned as legislators try to write bible friendly laws.
randal graves said:

"Whomever would the Canucks sell to? No one else uses oil and gas."

When the biggest consumer in the world is reduced to a small presence, all the suppliers come tumbling down. Of course no matter what lies ahead, 300+ million Americans will continue to consume.

You wrote:

"Is Canada dependent on us for many things?"

YOu better believe it. Meanwhile, the recent strength of the Canadian currency isn't all good news for Canada.

You wrote:

"Sure, just like the US is dependent on Canada and the world..."

Not quite the same. There are 33 million Canadians. It takes much less to power the Canadian economy than to run ours. If the trade balance with Canada takes a negative turn relative to Canada, the US won't feel a thing, while Canada will.

You observed:

"...you know, China - for many things. Walling up into a nation of isolationists isn't possible in 2007."

I am certainly not suggesting isolationism. But many posters here see the US as the evil factor and are clearly rooting for disaster to strike. But they hope to have gotten themselves out of the country before the apocalypse.
polishifter, you wrote:

"At one time it was our right to protest, to free speech, to peacefully assemble. Dissenting against the government was a patriotic duty of all Americans...Now it's become a sin."

Where do you live that you can believe your own statements?

Protesting, assembling, dissenting and verbal assaults simply over-run our lives these days.

Let's see. What's happening today?

A protest is underway in Jena, Louisiana to drop the charges of criminal assault against a black teenager who attacked a white student in the Jena high school.

You can be sure huge protests will occur on Monday and Tuesday in New York City when Ahmadenijad, the psycho from Iran, speaks at Columbia and the U.N.

Frankly, a day does not pass in NY City without a protest underway somewhere.

Then there were the psycho nuts who claim that 9/11 was perpetrated by the US government. They gather and appear every year at the 9/11 Memorial Services at Ground Zero where they do their best to upset the family members of those killed.

In fact, not only was I debating these clowns in NY City on 9/11, I bumped into some of their fellow believers while I was in Idaho in August. They held a rally in Coeur d'Alene to make the same insane claims.

Really. If you think protesting and dissent has been stifled in this country, you must live somewhere far away from the US. If you were here, you would know your claim is groundless.
Just FYI Tina, hardly anybody in London Ontario speaks French outside of a high school French class. It's only in Quebec, northern New Brunswick, and a few scattered communities elsewhere that French is the day-to-day spoken language. Besides, most Francophones are bilingual out of necessity, in order to communicate with the Anglophone majority. It's only if you plunk yourself down in some remote isolated rural community in northern Quebec that you would have trouble finding people who spoke English - oh, and areas around Vancouver B.C., but there the problem would be with Asian immigrants who haven't yet integrated. There are some Chinese Ghettos in Richmond, BC where you can't order an eggroll in English.

Bring a sweater.
Ah no_slappz...good to seem some things--like your penchant for novel length responses and ad hominem attacks--never changes.

No US, no market for Canadian oil and gas. No US, no auto manufacturing. You name it, and it's gone without the good old US of A steaming along, supporting everyone north of the border.

As you have so often pointed out, even in this post, consumption of fossil fuels is unlikely to slacken. Thus the largest petroleum reserve in the world, Canada's tar sands, will become even more valuable than they already are. Especially considering that, with oil prices at record levels, refining the tar would be a profitable venture. Likewise Canada's timber which I guarantee China is just as interested in as the good 'ol US of A.

Randal has it right on.
kvatch, the dialogue veered way into hypothetical territory when posters expressed feelings about heading for the hills to escape some pending calamity in the US.

You can be sure no threat to the Republic is on the horizon -- though there are the fatal desires of mad muslims who dream of our destruction. They, predictably, will fail.

Anyway, like I said, for people who want to live the ex-pat life, the best bet is to head for Cuba after Fidel dies. He hasn't got long.
As usual, no_slappz, I think you supply some good moderating comments; then take them to an opposite extreme.

To whit: Polishifter wrote, Dissenting against the government was a patriotic duty of all Americans...Now it's become a sin."

to which you replied: Where do you live that you can believe your own statements?

My nod of acknowledgment of the gist of your point must needs be tempered by the reality that "A Senate GOP amendment to repudiate the MoveOn.org ad passed Thursday 72-25 as Republicans tried to force Democrats to distance themselves, on the record, from the controversy."

Godwin's Law must be respected, if not slavishly abused. History repeats whenever its details are ignored or deemed irrelevant.

This ain't my site, but I'm kinda glad you show up here now'n'then. None the, I'm with Randall's overall commentary on the situation in my still Great country. Teh Goons in charge are Goons indeed. Those in the wings - my own Party of official affiliation - don't as of yet appear to be much better.

To be clear, though: I still have not purchased any firearms, eh.

;-|
randal graves wrote:

"At the risk of breaking Godwin's Law, which us liberals love to do at every opportunity, the average German in 1932, for example, couldn't have foreseen what was going to take place."

Your statement hangs on the belief that the average German would have disapproved of the persecution of Jews and the national ambition to kill them all. But that's not how it was. Anti-Semitism was rampant.

You wrote:

"I don't want my government spying on me."

Actually, you do. "Universal Healthcare" a.k.a. Government Healthcare, is the ultimate spy tool.

You wrote:

"I don't want my government allowing a city to drown."

As San Francisco sits atop a major fault-line on the Earth's surface, New Orleans exists below sea level. As much as I love both cities, I cannot imagine two dumber places to occupy. American ingenuity and know-how has led to the construction of buildings that can withstand a lot of abuse from natural forces. But Nature is the occasional winner in some contests against Man.

You wrote:

"I don't want my government illegally invading and occupying a sovereign nation, no matter how much of a evil boogeyman runs the place."

I suppose you would have made the same comment had the US jumped into WWII a couple of years earlier than we did.

You wrote:

"I don't want my government curtailing civil liberties in the name of freedom."

I haven't witnessed a single curtailment of civil liberties yet. People have been more vocal than ever.

You wrote:

"I don't want my government permitting the politicization and christianization of departments and the military."

Urge your fellow Americans to vote. Furthermore, I would suggest supporting the idea of limiting the terms of Senators and Representatives, and limiting the appointments of Supreme Court Justices. We don't benefit from the presence of an elected official or justice who remains in place for several decades.
What kind of hypocritical double standard is this, from no_slappz, "I don't want my government spying on me."

Actually, you do. "Universal Healthcare" a.k.a. Government Healthcare, is the ultimate spy tool.


Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence! The idea that government funds health care does not necessarily mean that it monitors the records of each patient. I would assume that the HMO's are a much less secure repository of your records.

I suppose you support the illegal invasion of privacy entailed by the administration defying the FISA courts, on the grounds that it saves lives? Huh? Well, universal healthcare saves a lot more lives. It is estimated that the lack of health insurance kills 18,000 Americans a year. That's SIX 9/11's, EVERY YEAR. If the objective is to save lives, you are losing sight of the goal by fixating on your warped ideology.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -- Benjamin Franklin

BTW, I totally agree with your last para, esp. WRT the term limits.
No_slappz, we have term limitations. It's called voting.
But that's not how it was. Anti-Semitism was rampant.

There was anti-Semitism in 1096, with the pogroms along the Rhineland during the assembly for the first crusade, as well. You're making it sound like every single German citizen was "yay, Final Solution."

Actually, you do. "Universal Healthcare" a.k.a. Government Healthcare, is the ultimate spy tool.

What sadbuttrue said.

You wrote:

construction of buildings that can withstand a lot of abuse from natural forces. But Nature is the occasional winner in some contests against Man.

Of course they're not the smartest places to build a city, but you know exactly what my point was. I assume this is where you tell me that FEMA failed, which proves that government solutions always fail. Except when bombing someone.

I suppose you would have made the same comment had the US jumped into WWII a couple of years earlier than we did.

It's always comical when World War Two is equated with Iraq.

I haven't witnessed a single curtailment of civil liberties yet. People have been more vocal than ever.

There is no habeas corpus. The big telecoms are joining the Cheney administration in keeping logs of our communications. Ordinary citizens have been thrown out of Bush rallies. There was that case of the couple winning their lawsuit for the shirt they wore on a plane.

Urge your fellow Americans to vote. Furthermore, I would suggest supporting the idea of limiting the terms of Senators and Representatives, and limiting the appointments of Supreme Court Justices. We don't benefit from the presence of an elected official or justice who remains in place for several decades.

Everything you just said is spot on, but the fact remains that these guys are in power, and there needs to be limits on power and a separation between church and state AND punishments when these laws are broken, and that isn't being done. In this case, term limits are another strawman. Someone doesn't get elected/appointed, get to do whatever illegal activities they want while the people go "oh, only 24 months until we can vote he/she out. Hope they behave themselves." Hell, let me know when Miers/Rove actually follow their subpoenas. And yes, that's firmly directed at the Dems, who have been miserable on that front.
Anonymous wrote:

"No_slappz, we have term limitations. It's called voting."

More or less. But there is no benefit to 60 years of Strom Thurmond or 40 years of Ted Kennedy, especially with his driving record.

Meanwhile, we don't need octagenarian Supreme Court Justices. Old is old. The country is not well served by doddering justices with declining mental faculties.

I have not settled on a number, but somewhere around 25 years on the job is about enough.
If Howard gets back in Australia may soon be empty of people so there'll be plenty of room for American expatriates!

It's an interesting post, Kvatch, one that confirms many of the American comments I've been getting. It's also a sad post!
IMO, Term Limits are utterly ridiculous. Since Money is empirically NOT the same as Speech, regardless of any previous interpretations of the U.S.C., the simple, logical, rational and Constitutionally acceptable solution is Campaign Spending Limits.

No one should be able to PURCHASE an election using any CURRENCY except their IDEAS.

The Term Limits concept is a self-defeating foolhardiness, the love of which is made possible merely by so very many folks actually thinking (paranoidally, to be sure) that Wealth is a Right akin to Speech; a phenomenally absurd concept based on fear & greed. And not the good kinds!

The U.S. Constitution proclaims our Right to acquire Wealth; not to utilize it in any way we see fit. Hekk! It doesn't even do that for speech! (FIRE!!! in a crowded house, anyone?)

:)
Daniel... Indeed it is very sad. It's hard to abandon a country, especially one that started with such high ideals. Parts of my family have been in the North America since the 1620s, and oddly that gives me more pause than just the notion that I would be giving up on the U.S.A.

No_slappz... Sometimes even 25 is too much. Look at Diane Feinstein. If ever there was a politician that has abandoned her constituents, it's her.
No one should be able to PURCHASE an election using any CURRENCY except their IDEAS.

Well said Micheal. I all for limits on campaign spending as well as limits on the campaign season. 3 or 4 months being bombarded is more than we need and more than is necessary. Give the press less time to tear the candidates down for being...well...candid.
michaelbains writes:

"IMO, Term Limits are utterly ridiculous. Since Money is empirically NOT the same as Speech, regardless of any previous interpretations of the U.S.C., the simple, logical, rational and Constitutionally acceptable solution is Campaign Spending Limits."

There is absolutely no way for limit campaign spending. Any gambit or strategy you can concoct will succumb to an easy defeat. Why bother?

Meanwhile, since you can stand on a street corner or on a soapbox anywhere in the country and say whatever you wish, there is obviously no limit on free speech.

However, the voice on the street corner has no leverage. No matter how compelling the words and wisdom of the street-corner sage, only a handful of people will hear him, and most will walk away.

Without the leverage provided by money, no candidate has a chance.

More important, however, is the fact that money alone does not win elections.

The US has a long history of wealthy candidates who have utterly failed at the voting booth.

Ross Perot failed. He received over 15% of the popular vote. But he failed to win a single state in the electoral vote. He did, however, take the 1992 election from Bush 41 and give it to Bill Clinton. Thus, he changed the course of American politics.

Was that his true goal?

Steve Forbes has threatened to run for the presidency a few times. But his actual attempts have bombed.

Despite having a billionairess for a wife, John Kerry lost in 2004.

Michael Bloomberg, billionaire, is the mayor of NYC. His opponents, however, were politically helpless. They lost because they were clearly inferior to Bloomberg. His opponents in both races have been long-term fixtures in the NY City political scene. For the fact that they were well known to the voters of NYC, they lost.

In the 1990s Ronald Lauder, son of Estee Lauder, also a billionaire, campaigned for mayor of NYC. He got crushed in the mayoral primary.

Money alone does not buy high office.
Wow. 50+ comments. You hit one here Kvatch!
i'm with chuck, i'm #52. i'd try to stay and fight, as long as there was a movement in sight. until the fundies see the light, we will continue our plight. otherwise, i'm off on my flight, to be on a white sand beach flying a kite. sometimes there is no right.

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