2007/07/15

Kvatch Konsiders: When 'Gay' Is The Answer

The Nvisiblewmn has a great post up examining the connection between homophobia and the violence that seems to plague suburban, largely white, conservative US high schools. Now I don't want to take anything away from her post, but I think I should call your attention to the one obvious fact that stands out, at least for me, like sneakers with a tuxedo:

If we had more gay students in our schools, say 50%, we wouldn't have all these problems!

Now...I'm tempted to make this simply a numbers argument--you simply can't bully a group of students that make up 50% of the population--but I feel that I should delve deeper.

Let's start with a premise: Heterosexual high school age boys are louts, crude, rude, socially retarded members of society that, if we weren't so conditioned against cannibalism, we'd probably turn into soylent green and consume. They dress badly, they act badly, they're stupid, and semi-literate. Have you looked into a high-school boy's room lately. AUGGGGGHHHHH! There isn't enough money in the Superfund to clean 'em all up.

But, on the other hand, if 50% of all males were gay, the positive effects would be astounding. Aside from reducing violent outbursts from brawls to shouting matches, "Go away our I shall taunt you a second time..." heterosexual boys would have to dress better--maybe even learn to coordinate an outfit--groom themselves, and maybe...just maybe...learn to relate to women. Because let's face nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a "hag brush-off". "Gee Slash, I'd love to go to a monster truck rally with you, but my best friend Steve is taking me to a revival of Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat."

In short, what I'm trying to say is this: If we want to stem the tide of youth violence in this country, the answer is obvious. We need more gay adolescent males. Nuff said.

37 Comments:

Yes, let's spend loads of money to isolate the gay gene, so that teenage boys who can't control their testosterone will be forced to become something that nature had not intended.
How about we force parents to spend more time with their children, since most problem children are lacking in parental supervision? Surely, most parents don't like to tkae the blame for the monsters they have raised, but the truth is babies are born sweet and innocent and only become unruly because of the environment they are raised in.
Wow. A plague of shootings. Let's see, the author says there have been 28 school shootings committed by white boys since 1982, for an average of about one a year. However, we know they occurred in a couple of clusters and that in recent years the pace has dropped off.

Meanwhile, no death toll was given. Columbine led to roughly a dozen deaths. All others were less lethal.

It's interesting to consider that white boys were the perpetrators in every case. Why?

Because in most urban settings, you can't easily slip a gun into a school. Thus, if you want death and mayhem, look at urban statistics, paying special attention to the age and race of city killers.

Black and hispanic teenage shooters nail their victims on the streets or at home. Not at school, where they are sure to be caught.

Meanwhile, in contrast to 28 school shootings in almost 28 years committed by white boys, there are at least 28 shootings A WEEK committed by black and hispanic teenagers in this country.

Thus, where does the problem lie? Are white boys really a problem? Are white boys shooting others outside of school? No.

Is the local landscape itself part of the problem? Is it the vacuousness of suburban living that leads to gunplay?

If it is the hum-drum sameness of the suburban existence that leads to the occasional shooting, should parents move to the nearest exciting urban area to ensure their white boys are occupied in wholesome ways?

In New York City, where I live, it's unlikely that calling a white student "gay" would cause the white male student to acquire a weapon and bring it to school.

However, to be called "gay" in the black and hispanic teen culture of this city is a riskier affair. Homophobia is more alive within those two groups.

In the end, it is totally disingenuous to CONSTRUCT a setting in which white boys are the perpetrators of heinous crimes. For one, the problem is easily prevented by keeping guns out of the hands of teenage boys unless a responsible adult is present.

Second, and more important, focusing on these rare events trivializes the extraordinary level of violence among black and hispanic teens. They are casual remorseless killers. And they commit a sizeable percentage of the homicides occurring in this country every year.

To agonize over the causes of the few killings committed by white boys in school suggests the handful of perpetrators and victims are more important than the huge number of black and hispanic teens who are murdered every year. Excessive concern for the white tragedy seems to say that our society expects nothing better from blacks and hispanics, so why worry if they shoot each other on the streets since there's nothing we can do about it anyway.
Lew... Uh, need to turn up the gain on that satire detector, I think. ;-)

No_slappz... I'd make the same comment, but I know it would be useless. Tell me though...how do you manage to construe concern for one particular pattern of violence (albeit a smaller, and as you point out, perhaps less tragic pattern) as lack of concern for another?

To agonize over the causes of the few killings committed by white boys in school suggests the handful of perpetrators and victims are more important than the huge number of black and hispanic teens who are murdered every year.

As usual you're making up other people's opinions from whole cloth and then arguing against what was not said.
I didn't recall reading anything about race in the post. Just hetero high school age boys.

The testosterone factor is a huge problem with them, not just leading to violence but other forms of cruelty and an all around lack of resect for others.

One thing that would help is if high schools fully funded music and arts programs as much as they do for sports. Teching agression, and not teaching about beauty is a very sad mistake.
LOL. Who knows, maybe there could be a huge sea change in teenagers' mass consciousness. The hottest chicks in high school might start saying "Bruno keeps asking me out, but I don't want to go out with some dumb musclebound football player. Oh, have you seen the way Lance has decorated his living room? To die for! I want him to ask me out."

Who Hijacked Our Country
High levels of Testosterone are found in 9 out of 10 murderers, rapists and violent street gangs all across the nation. So we have a hormone epidemic going on? Do you think that's where "might makes right" thinking comes from? Who knows.
Soylent Green. Ha! I hadn't thought of that movie in ages.
Homrmone epidemic? Interesting. Eat right, less screen time and parents don't have kids unless you want to take an interest in them. I'm sure its not that easy.
UnconventionalC... no_slappz is doing what he usually does, flogging a position on a related, though off-topic, issue.

Competition is not necessarily a bad thing, but as you say, it needs to be tempered with all sorts of other pursuits that we don't pay much attention to these days.

Tom... That's what I'm getting at. How can a jock compare to a man who "understands you".
Peacechick... Maybe the key is to give testosterone to women. Then we'll all be aggressive! :-)

Mary... Good suggestions, especially that last one about having kids. Course...I should talk, I don't have any.
kvatch, you wrote:

"No_slappz... I'd make the same comment, but I know it would be useless."

Perhaps you think murder is funny. Based on your flippant post, you do.

Have you personally known any murder victims. Not from afar. But actually known a murder victim? Have you seen the impact on a family? Especially if the victim is a child living at home.

What you fail to see is that your attempt at satire falls flat on a subject like this. It's that simple. There's no way to casually dismiss murder among teenagers.

You asked:

"Tell me though...how do you manage to construe concern for one particular pattern of violence (albeit a smaller, and as you point out, perhaps less tragic pattern) as lack of concern for another?"

Your pal nvisiblewmn wrote an inane post that attempted to connect teenage homophobic taunting and bullying with the murderous response of the taunted victims.

I can guarantee you that murder crosses the minds of teenagers almost as often as sex. But very few murders occur because very few kids have the means, motive and opportunity to kill the objects of their hatred.

Sex, on the other hand, well, usually there are two interested parties, and neither one goes home dead.

Meanwhile, though virtually all the schoolhouse murders were perpetrated by white male teenagers, that description doesn't go far enough.

The murders were perpetrated by while male teenagers with GUNS.

No guns. No murder. I have no doubt that our annual murder total would explode if all teenagers were armed. Meanwhile, like I mentioned, there are no shootings in NY City public schools because in most high schools kids must pass through more security than travelers at the airport.

Thus, no one is shot at school.

Anyway, despite the near absence of schoolhouse violence in the US, nvisiblewmn is studying this rare social pathology and it moved to post her commentary about it. But her comment reads as though schoolhouse shootings are occurring at epidemic levels.

The idea put forth is that schoolhouse shootings require the focused attention of all parties with an interest in the well being of teenagers. Professionals and parents.

However, in every case, the white teenage boys easily obtained guns. Thus, the only issue of substance is the issue of guns. Not the charged minds of teenage boys.

On the other hand, her post ignores the carnage that occurs among black and hispanic teenagers. But there is no difference in motivations or responses.

When black and hispanic teenagers are "disrespected" they too often shoot each other. They fire away with near abandon in every city in the country.

Thus, claiming a special class of victim/criminal white boys exists is to suggest there is a new social pathology among whites that needs attention. This is totally phony.

We don't allow kids to drink and drive because we know how too many of them will behave. The statistics are painfully evident.

Thus, by the same reasoning, teenagers should not have free access to guns.

Anyway, expending research efforts in this direction trivializes the tragedy in the black and hispanic community. The police in NY City work hard to get guns off the street. We all know teenagers all over the city have guns. We know if they had no guns, the murder rate would fall even further than it has. Yet the simple issue of gun-possession is transmuted into some deep psychological issue when the perps are white kids.

You wrote:

"As usual you're making up other people's opinions from whole cloth and then arguing against what was not said."

You have no capacity for seeing the subtext of people's comments. If you want satire and irony, look again at what people say when they mean to make heartfelt and sympathetic comments. They usuall miss by a mile.
I couldn't read the whole thing. My gaydar is broken.
This testosterone problem rears its ugly head in all aspects of life since the beginning of time. Its a way of life and is ignored quite often and accepted. It does need changing and it needs to be drummed into little heads from birth that its not acceptable or tolerated.
All this gay thing seems to be a waste of time and trouble. It is not enough that they insult gay males. To put this together without scientific support is just a waste of time.
Kvatch, hey it's okay, my snarkometer's been on the fritz for the whole weekend. BTW, I tagged you with another thinking blogger award, you lucky son-of-a-gun!
Kvatch, "Queer Eye for the High School Guy"?

You making fun of me?

No-Slappz, your reading "skills" leave a lot to be desired.
Hello, Kvatch. I hear a lot about excess testosterone around here, and I'm wondering if people are really aware that excess testosterone is converted to estrogen in the system.
That's why steroid freaks take estrogen inhibitors during the on-cycle, to keep from growing breasts.

Other than that, I take great exception to the characterization of the Invisible Woman's post as "inane." The post itself was observations from an academic peer-reviewed study by two notable researchers.
Is the work of these researchers, then, also "inane?"

Now, it is cited that 2 of these 28 school shootings had a minority as the attacker. Also, it was found to be mainly a suburban phenomenon. There are indeed legitimate inferences that can be drawn from this, notably that of class expectations; but the role of organized crime is not a legitimate inference.
Neglecting the role of organized crime, ie gangs, in the study is only proper. The study dealt with school shootings, not organized crime.

Now, my younger brother missed school one day when he was at a friends house, talking him out of bringing a gun to school. This was in a town of about 600 people, a town with two police officers, one on day shift and the other on nights. No metal detectors. Security is the principal.
A year or two after that, the young man later stole a car and got into a shoot-out with the cops. He spent several years in Las Cruces over that. His brother, Ricky, died in a car wreck the day he was sentenced. He was out driving crazy, taking some of the edge of of his mindless aggression and frustration. Ricky was my friend. He died at 16. It hurts me to even think about it.
Their oldest brother, Ram (Ramos), was the only one to ever graduate high school-- a great achievement for his family. The fellow in the shoot-out got his GED in prison.
Their parents came from Mexico, had very little education, and could speak very little English (the mother could speak none at all).

Why fault the study because my brother was being a friend to his friend, and was able to keep him from bringing the gun to school?

December of '05, my oldest brother was shot on the way home from work. He was working maintenance at the public library through a temp service. He stopped to get a six-pack at the bus stop on his way home, like he did so many times before, and he was shot two blocks away.
That was the Monday before Christmas. I spent all week wondering if my brother would live or not.

Still, it has nothing to do with libraries-- or schools either.
Damn I love when somebody makes my point for me [see "whole cloth"].

You're not going to seriously suggest that a post about the loutishness of adolescent boys (you did get that part right?) implies the following nonsense:

Perhaps you think murder is funny. Based on your flippant post, you do.

Regardless of where I got the idea, the post remains what it is, a satirical poke at homophobia and stupidity in adolescent boys.

Sometimes no_slappz, despite your desperation for it to be otherwise, a spade is still just a spade.
I once saw a t-shirt on a little kid that said "sexuality undetermined." I thought that was great...but then again I'm a part of the gay agenda, even though I'm not gay & I don't have an agenda.
PT... Don't worry, I laid it on a little think. Probably would've broken anyone's gaydar.

Robert... I guess the interesting question is, how do we accomplish that. Lew's probably got the right idea: parental involvement.

Let's Talk... Not sure what you're getting at. Though I suspect that my attitude would actually be vaguely insulting to many of my gay friends.
Lew... Ah Sir! It's much appreciated. I'm tickled at the "nobody out snarks the master" observation! :-)

Nvisiblewmn... "Queer eye for the High School Guy"! I love it!

ProgressiveT... Your point about the pedigree and focus of the studies is a good one. Though I doubt no_slappz will give an inch over that.

Hey...while we're on the subject...Las Cruces? That's right up the road from my hometown, El Paso.
Hello, Kvatch.
Head to Cruces, take a right, and when you come down out of the mountains, that's my old stomping grounds (and I did do some pretty good stomping there...).
Called Llano Estacado, the Caprock, and the Permian Basin. Not really sure what the difference is. Largest mesa in the world.
Fished the Pecos, south of Carlsbad mostly, around Malaga. A place called Black River they stock with trout. White bass run at Red Bluffs where the Pecos enters Texas.
Was last there for Christmas, sometime in the early '90s.
I love the desert, and a part of it will always be a part of me.
I could begin with my neighborhood in my small city and write volumes about poverty, race, gangs, drugs, inadequate education, poor health care, and murder.

I'm sure nvisiblewmn could too.

She chose to talk about another form of violence among youth. I read her excellent post and nowhere did I hear her discount the problems in our inner cities.

Just because we're devoting some time and space to one issue doesn't mean we're ignoring the other.

Inane? We must not have been reading the same post.
But...but...what about prom??? What are all the heterosexual girls supposed to do??
what about all those crazy gay/lesbo girl gangs going around beating the crap outta innocent people walking the street? yeah, it's o'reilly but it is something happening across the country. in my opinion, teens in highschool that act in such crude and violent manners have deeper problems (sorry for the freud, but family, drugs, mental, etc.) in conjunction with their raging hormones, and gay people, even if 99% of the school composition, are not going to change the way they perceive and act out on the world.
Lizzy... I'm so a part of the gay agenda. It means better clothing options, better property values, higher living standards. Around here nothing beats gay and lesbians for all out gentrification, beautification, and stability.

ProgressiveT... When I was a kid, I used to do a lot of hiking both in the mountains west of Las Cruces and in the Carlsbad area. White Sands was a hangout for me and my friends. Skiing in the mountains around Ruidoso. [sigh]
Tree, gay guys like to dance. Also, I had a gay friend once who was really good with hair styling....
Granny... Well said.

What are all the heterosexual girls supposed to do?

Tree... What are you kidding? Unless one's goal is to get laid on prom night, imagine the advantages of going with your gay friend. He'll dress better. He'll dance better. He'll be polite, courteous, considerate, stylish. What more could you ask for? ;-)
And also, Darfur must be saved.
Raffi... Not wanting to distract from your point, but the original post is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.

There is no question that you can't solve the problem of teen violence with simple solutions. Homosexuals can be as cruel to each other and to heterosexuals as anybody.

Nvisiblewmn... Now that's a good point--a friend who'll look great on prom night and who can help you look great too! ;-)
Ya know - I know it's a humorous post and all - but in my wild 20's my friend Susan and I used to hang out alot with our gay friends Dippy and Chico. Dippy and Chico would take us to gay bars to dance and drink in complete safety.

Hell - NOBODY in there wanted to hit on us!! But EVERYBODY wanted to dance with us - and did! *grin*

I had more fun in those bars with the boys than I ever had in a straight bar where asking a girl to dance was apparently the moral equivalent of a formal proposal of matrimony - given the number of offers to worship Terpsicore I received there.
This will be lost in the flood of good comments, but what the heck.

AFAIK, owning a gun (and shooting it at red people or occasional white people who try to take your liberty and pursuit of happiness away) is something granted by the Constitution. Now I know your president considers it a god damn piece of paper, but do show some respect, huh? :)

And I would wage a guess that most gun related homicides are not random, but directed at specific persons. As long as these people are killing each other, we all win.
romunov, you wrote:

"AFAIK, owning a gun (and shooting it at red people or occasional white people who try to take your liberty and pursuit of happiness away) is something granted by the Constitution."

Yeah, if the other guy is threatening you with a deadly weapon. But if he's carrying only a ball-point pen and you blast him with your .44, things might not go your way in court.

You wrote:

"And I would wage a guess that most gun related homicides are not random, but directed at specific persons. As long as these people are killing each other, we all win."

Yes, there are some "public service" homicides. Few tears are shed when violent felons are killed by other violent felons. Though usually there is a mother present to wail that her son was an honor student and didn't deserve to die even though he was attempting to murder another neighborhood honor student.

Anyway, it's an oversimplification to think that all scores with society are settled because one bad guy kills another bad guy. The facts show that plenty of victims were not candidates for death row, even if they weren't society's most honest and reputable members.

Meanwhile, in my own personal experience, every murder victim I've known, and the number is unfortunately large, every victim except two were decent people.

The world is not better for their untimely departures.
God Discusses Condoms: Papal Penis Proclamations Flawed
I just spoke to God. He said that his plan for the planet was a forty per cent reduction in homo sapiens to three point eight billion inhabitants, you know, global warming, famines and all that shit.
Part of the math was the 'how many babies per couple?' formula.
This turns out to be one point two six children per do-it-yourself couple planet wide.
This takes getting a whole bunch of weenies and vaginee parts to leave each other alone.
Ergo, he said, I'm going to crank up production of my weenies of mis direction children , or WMDs as the Neo-Theos call them until at such time that the planet's CO2, oxygen, food, water, etc return to homeostasis. This I call 'harmony with the divine.'
Actually, I sent Mr. Darwin down to sort of explain it all, but that's another story.
Speaking of other stories, Mr. Kvatch on his blognonymous website gets a gold star for his comments on the need for and the long term benefits from non reproductive sexual behavior.
Given his well honed sense of humor, may I ever so deliciously point out to him that if the NeoTheos and Big Benny forwent the skinny dipping good, Papal Penii Protection Bad Proclamations and pedalled condoms worldwide like their bigoted, capalist, money grubbing asses were falling off I would not have to alter your planet's sexual mores for, hmm, let me see, I've got my notes right here, the next thirty one thousand years.
"Christ, is that right? Thirty one thousand.....?"
Maybe the high schools could be targeted with the gay bombs Bush tried to develop.
If someone would just jump on my idea of an all-gay cast of Big Brother or Survivor, we could get to 50% in no time. We all know that kids catch gay from the TVs and interwebnets
Sewmouse... Hell, even in my mis-spent youth I used to go with friends (gay and straight) to the gay clubs. They had better music, and it's not like everyone there couldn't tell I was straight. All I had to was walk a few feet. That said, despite utter lack of interest on my part, having people pay attention to you, gay or straight, is flattering.

Romunov... Very...uh..."socially darwinian" there, Romunov.
Cognitorex... You talk to God?! I'm honored just to be in your presence! On the subject of children, the Frogette and I forwent the pleasure. So some lucky couple can have our 1.26.

TomCat... Heh, heh! :-)

We all know that kids catch gay from the TVs and interwebnets

Scott... You got that right! Gay/Liberal/Feminazi agenda it is!

BTW: Like the Survivor idea.

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