Frog Against Theocracy

You know... I was all ready to write some conciliatory, "Why can't we all just tolerate each other," post for the Blog Against Theocracy swarm, but frankly I'm in a grumpy mood and am just not feeling very tolerant.

So here's the deal: The reason we have an establishment clause in the first place is because the early Christian founders were just as afraid, just a suspicious, of each other as modern evangelicals are of Catholics, Mormons, Jews, and well...everybody that's not them. The founders didn't want to see any of their religions pushed to the margins by the establishment of a national faith.

So those of you who argue that, as a Christian nation, we should ignore the 1st Amendment to put religion (aka Christian religion) back in our schools, our public places, and our government--to the detriment of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, and grumpy frogs--better get-the-f*ck over yourselves. You want things your own way? Then amend the Constitution and freakin' leave me in peace until you've managed it!


Amen brother Kvatch
Excellent rant!
The scary thing is there will always be someone out there that thought the Salem witch trials were a completely reasonable and necessary thing. Sad, but true. All this controversy could have been avoided if the Founders had more carefully selected a key preposition. I think it should have been, 'freedom from religion that was guaranteed in the first amendment.

At the very least it should be recognized that religion can be misused as an accumulation point for power or money. As I recall, Jesus admonished his disciples to rid themselves of all burdening worldly goods - not even allowing for a second cloak. Nowadays Christ's putative representatives on Earth build Crystal Palaces, and own fleets of limousines, even private jets. I say treat them as the commercial enterprises so many have overtly become, and tax. the. hell. out. of. them.
Fashiongirl, Peacechick, Granny... Many thanks.

SadButTrue... I think that founders couldn't conceive of freedom-from-religion, and so it wasn't explicitly included. Though, I fervently believe that the modern interpretation supports exactly that notion. As for taxing religious organizations...one step beyond the line--say into political advocacy--and I'm all over it.
Now why didn't I write that? Perfect statement, frogman. Direct and clear.
Excellent rant - clapping as hard as I can.
Everybody needs an escape fantasy, that's fine if you want to pray to some invisible guy and the sky and think you're bound for a better afterlife because of who you genuflect to, or because you don't eat meat on Fridays, or whatever, but my escape fantasy involves a rapture swiping all you zealots off the planet and leaving the rest of us in peace.
Now why didn't I write that?

You're not in as foul a mood as I? :-\

Just kidding. I had really intended to write something deep, but I just couldn't come up with anything.

Gracie... Thanks. I often wonder how many people feel about the establishment clause the way I do. I'm one of those cranks who, if they removed religion from our daily lives completely, wouldn't shed a tear.

Lew... Damn man! Now there's an idea. Probably help with global climate change as well.
I say we let the theocrats have one state all to themselves. Wasn't South Carolina trying to get a Christian exodus going on recently?
South Carolina or Alabama, I'm not sure wich one.
Happy Easter
God Bless you, Froggy. You're on a roll. I like Lew's idea.
Aaron, Comandante... With global warming and all, I say that we give 'em Florida. I mean, there's already an all Catholic town. Right?

Robert, PT... Thanks, I guess(?) You guys trying to be funny? ;-)
You said in a few words wht I managed to wax really poetic on and on and on. I probably bored the hell out of anyone that tried to read the damn thing.
short and to the point! maybe someday there won't be a reason to have to worry about any of that.
Sumo... Just finished your post, and I wasn't bored at all (though I have to admit that skipped some of the quotes ;-)). Nice job.

...there won't be a reason to have to worry about any of that.

Betmo... Well, we can hope, but probably not in my lifetime. I'm skeptical that we'll ever see an admitted agnostic or atheist as president.
"You want things your own way? Then amend the Constitution and freakin' leave me in peace until you've managed it!"

The trouble is, they have been amending the Constitution, at least in practice, with laws like the USA PATRIOT Act and the Military Commissions Act. Then the Republican-appointed Supreme Court simply refuses to consider any cases where a test of constitutionality applies. It is a dirty rotten trick, it stinks to high heaven - and so far it's working perfectly for them.

Supreme Court Jesters.. and Obscene Court Gestures
I like what Ghandi said:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." --ain't that the friggin truth!
Good rant there, Frogman!! I am going to have to rant here too, because I am thoroughly fed up with theocons, theocrats, whatever they should be called besides just plain "shit-for-brains". I have been reading and thoroughly enjoying Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion"... it is taking me a while because I am finding enough profundities in it that I am having to read and reread sections of the book. Quite the good read!

This "our country was founded as a Christian nation" bullshit is, well, blatant bullshit. People who beat that tired old horse need to do some research, although most of them are probably the types who don't accept evidence that contradicts their non-reality-based belief systems.

Our forefathers were either mostly deists or they didn't like religion. Hell, ya oughta see some of the negative quotes from Thomas Jefferson and John Adams about religion...

How about these from Jefferson: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." Or this one: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Or even this one: "It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong."

Here are a couple from John Adams for the evangelical doofii to put in their pipes and smoke: "The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion." And "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religions in it."

And that old bastard hippie Ben Franklin! Can you imagine he would say this: "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Or this: "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

Wait! Even James Madison? "What have been [Christianity’s] fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." He also said "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." "Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

The people who put our country together knew what they were doing. Our Constitution is the way it is for good reason. People who want to dick around with it need to, as you so well put it, get over themselves. Or maybe if they are not willing to uphold the Constitution, as Bush has vowed to do but has not done, they should all leave. Maybe they will all be the ones who get "raptured", and then the rest of us hellbound types can live out our days without their nagging, odious puritanism.

So what does Bush think about these issues?

"The United States is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles and beliefs."

He also has said "I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

What an asshole.

Here is a quote I love from Emo Phillips: "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."

And finally, a couple from the immortal and dearly-missed Frank Zappa: "Children are naïve -- they trust everyone. School is bad enough, but, if you put a child anywhere in the vicinity of a church, you're asking for trouble." And, "If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT."

There are a lot of great quotes to be found at http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/core/scripts/viewQuotes.php

Sorry this was so long-winded. I may end up posting it on my blog. Hell, I'll go right ahead and do that! Heh...
I like what Lew said too. They can just Rapture themselves away and leave the rest of us in peace and quiet.
SadButTrue... You have an excellent, and the part about the court refusing constitution cases is perhaps the most important. Roberts has said straight out that he intends to reduce the number of cases on the docet.

Dusty... No truer words!

The people who put our country together knew what they were doing. Our Constitution is the way it is for good reason.

Well said. I think that this is why the Consitution has endured with relatively few changes. Though I think that the quote about atheists and citizenship is Bush Sr., not shrub. I'll be by presently to read what's on Various Miseries.

Diva... Oh to be around for that!

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